George R. R. Martin doesn’t have a Twitter and he did write it that way.
He does have a twitter but he doesn’t use it. Anyway that tweet is not by him.
However… He didn’t write it that way
At first he’s coming on too strong:
"Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons …” “The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. "
The she literally gives him verbal consent:
““Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.”
I wrote out the full scene without any omissions, and gave an analysis. It’s impossible to say for sure what is going on in Cersei’s head since the book is entirely from Jaime’s point of view, but I was under the impression that if someone says “No” to sex and the other person keeps advancing on them, it is still rape.
not if she say yes 5 seconds later and actually guides his dick into her vagina and gives him instructions about how to thrust
Was Jaime a bit of a turd for ignoring the first no despite that no actually being because she was afraid of discovery and not because she doesn’t want sex?? Yes
Would he have actually continued if she had said a second no? I doubt it
Would he have actually physically restrained her while she was struggling to get him off her and then forcibly rape her with the circumstances clearly displaying that it was a punishment for her rejecting him? A big fucking definite not.
She does say it a second and third time, in the section between the two paragraphs you quoted. Jaime’s actions are physical coercion.
I didn’t find the full quotation online, but it doesn’t matter: READ MY RESPONSE: “Would he have actually physically restrained her while she was struggling to get him off her and then forcibly rape her with the circumstances clearly displaying that it was a punishment for her rejecting him? A big fucking definite not.”
I pulled out my book and transcribed the scene as written, where Cersei physically fights back against Jaime before it becomes clear that he is not going to stop. That shouldn’t matter either, though, because she said no and he kept going.
ok, let’s call it “dubious consent” (although it wasn’t), do you still agree that they CHANGED THE FUCKING SCENE TO MAKE IT LOOK WORSE?
Yes, but it should. Unlike that chapter, the show is not told from Jaime’s point of view. The show should depict, unbiased, the event that has happened, not through the eyes of a specific character.
Even in Jaime’s point of view, there are some really disturbing parts from that second paragraph, notably “He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned.” and ”She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of the gods. He never heard her.” (My emphasis) These all indicate that Jaime is forcing Cersei into this and does not care what she thinks about it.
I agree that D&D character-maim if not character-assassinate frequently, and I think they’ve done it with Jaime and Cersei, just not in this scene.
Jaime and Cersei have had sex before in situation where he came on too strong and she yelled at him or smacked him first then succumbed and became more enthusiastic than him. There are plenty of times that he remembers that and I think once when Cersei has that memory about the “war for Cersei’s cunt” scene. I’m not saying it’s good or ok or healthy, but I’m saying that’s very normal dynamic for this specific couple. And the scene at the sept (minus the dead kid and the menstruation) was just a continuation of that same dynamic. It says he never heard her because she was always used to mumbling excuses about other people hearing them and while at the same time kissing him passionately and proceeding to have sex with him. She feels like she has to get those excuses out of the way for propriety’s sake, and it isn’t till their incest is exposed and she has to suppress rumors that she actually starts caring about other ppl hearing them, but so far, it’s just a part of their dynamic.
Some people misinterpret that or simply don’t approve of it, which is why they think the scene in the book was rapey. D&D do not fall into that category because they DELIBERATELY changed elements in it that made it 100% rape and a deviation from their dynamic. In the show, Jaime’s raping Cersei specifically because she spurned him, as in a punishment. That is as far out of their dynamic as anything could be.
Think of regular s&m relationships: it appears horrible to the outside but looking closer you there is trust and affection in there. If someone misinterprets it and doesn’t understand the dynamic they think something like 50 shades qualifies as true s&m. If someone is deliberately trying to misinterpret it to make it look salacious and grotesque, they skip even the pretend s&m that’s in 50 shades and go directly to the freaky dungeon abuse serial killer thing.
Now let’s talk about the character assassination:
A- Jaime has to phases: completely in love with Cersei and will do any horrible thing she asks him to, and falling out of love with Cersei and starting to slowly realize that she’s not a good person. In both stages he can never actively hurt her. The cruelest thing he’s ever done to her is ignore her plea for help at the end of book 5.
B- As far as I know, Jaime’s been exposed to rape issues 4 times:
1) He was traumatized at a young age having to stand outside Aerys’ door as Aerys raped Rhaella, and felt powerless because he was not allowed to help her. This and the execution of Rickard and Brandon Stark were 2 key reasons (although indirect) for his murdering Aerys
2) He suspected, although was never witness to, Robert beating and raping Cersei. This made him feel helpless and mad and he would have killed Robert for it, except that Robert had the sense to never do it when Jaime was around and Cersei never told him about it in a straight forward manner because she didn’t want him to kill Robert and be executed for it. Remember that he was willing to fight Robert when Robert made Cersei sad by sleeping around, only Cersei convinced him that a better revenge was them having an affair and all of Robert’s supposed legitimate children being Jaime’s
3) The Brienne thing. Too long and well-know to need explaining here
4) Pia. You might say he was good to Brienne because he loved her, but Pia meant nothing to him and he was still excellent to her. She came to him and seemed super-willing and he was aroused but he still sent her away. Later on he rescues her and recognizes how badly abused she was and give assurances that he won’t let anyone hurt her anymore. And sure enough, when one of the hundreds of guys who’s raped/assaulted her before tries again, Jaime beheads him. And the dude is all “but I had her before” and can’t understand how he can be punished for raping a non-virgin who had been forced into prostitution before, but Jaime has a zero-tolerance policy.
These actions paint Jaime as one of the few people in Westeros who is chivalrous enough to deal with rape and consent issues correctly. This is why it is character assassination for him to do this specific heinous act.
Also, you said previously that I missed a section and that she actually says no 3 times. Well, I found a full quotation and she is saying no exactly once. Also, it’s not that she becomes enthusiastic afterwards, she actually says the word “yes” maybe in a different context from her perspective, but I’m thinking GRRM put that specific word there for a reason.
“She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her. “I am not whole without you.”
There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons…”
“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.
“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.”
So yes, it’s not enthusiastic consent, but it’s still consent, and as much as we know Jaime’s character, he wouldn’t have kept going if she hadn’t actually responded, because the poor idiot thought that they were about to rekindle their dynamic and then either flee to the free cities and live together as lovers or force everyone to accept them and rule Westeros as a married couple. He was trying to give her comfort the same way he had always given her comfort, and she responded the same way she always responded.
Martin has confirmed that the scene is supposed to be disturbing and ambiguous. He doesn’t really weigh in on whether the scene was “accurate,” but does say that it’s colored by two major differences from his books: the length of Jaime’s presence in KL and the fact that the book is from Jaime’s POV and the show is from nobody’s. Honestly, deviating from the book and character assassination don’t bother me nearly as much as how the Internet has responded to this thing. A few basic rules that I didn’t think needed to be stated about modern consent:
1. If someone says no to sex and the other person keeps insisting until the other person relents, it is rape. A thousand no’s and one yes is not consent.
2. Just because someone has had consensual sex under certain conditions before doesn’t mean that consent doesn’t need to be obtained every time they have sex after that. Cersei was more than willing to share Robert’s bed on their wedding night, but certainly wasn’t afterward.
3. If someone enjoys nonconsensual sex, it is still rape.
4. Just because a man has chosen not to rape on one occasion doesn’t mean he won’t choose to rape on another occasion.
Perhaps I’m crazy because I’m applying modern values and attitudes to a fictional world based on medieval principles, but I feel like any time I defend the violence and sex on GoT with “Well, it’s not reflective of our values.” someone calls me a misogynist.
But it’s true: Westeros is not Earth 2014. Jaime is doing what he thinks is right, what he thinks he and Cersei both need. But Jaime is a very complex character. He is eternally at war with himself. He feels useless without his hand. He pushed a child out of a window with intent to kill. He attacked the Hand of the King in the middle of town. He murdered an unarmed man he was sworn to protect with a sword in the back. I’m not saying he didn’t have reasons for these actions, and many of them are good reasons. He’s also done many heroic and amazing things. But frequently it seems like the defense of Jaime is that, “Oh, Jaime wouldn’t rape because he’s the only man in Westeros who wouldn’t do that.” Well, he did on the show and might have in the books. (Also, the only man in Westeros who definitely wouldn’t do that, thus far, is Sandor fucking Clegane. Also a murderer and a thief, but certainly not a rapist. Unless the UnKiss is a real kiss… I assume not because Martin wrote “Blackwater” but honestly I don’t know anymore.)
I like Jaime. He killed Aerys, rescued Brienne, and helped Tyrion. He also tried to murder Bran and (by my reading) raped Cersei. These seemingly “out of character” moments make him more realistic to me. It’s why I’m not waiting patiently for Christopher Paolini’s next book.
Point of interest: I rewatched the episode today and focused on Lena Headey’s expressions. She is verbally rebuking Jaime, but there are moments when she strokes his face or kisses him back. I’m not backing down about it being rape, but I want to appreciate Headey for subtly bringing some of the complex emotions present in the books into the show.